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None of Microsoft's operating systems were as good as Windows XP and at least one (8) was a complete disaster, the shock waves from that catastrophe still rumbling around.

By failing to reproduce that success, Microsoft has ceded most of the moral market share to Apple. Though, as a Linux user, every time I see a Mac desktop I can't resist noticing how often would it lock up and display that rotating "busy" mouse cursor in place of what the proud Mac owner actually wanted to do at that moment.



This is not even a radical viewpoint, which is why the downvotes seem irrational. I have seen "normies" pontificating on how Windows XP was perfect for them and how they have seen no benefit going forward.

If I am being maximally charitable, the benefits that come afterwards are drivers, gaming-related (DirectX) or security-related (which is not a user-facing feature). All of them are nice, but not at the cost that the end user perceives; a slow, painful experience, with an OS that crashes randomly and has weird inconsistencies everywhere.

I have mostly stuck to Ubuntu for desktops (since 8.04) and MacOS for laptops (since Snow Leopard).

(Unrelated, I also notice the busy cursor, which is why I went back to Ubuntu once I was able to get a desktop)


My daily driver computing timeline is something like Win3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, OSX 10.4-10.11, then some combo of Ubuntu/Pop_OS.

I think Windows peaked with XP and macOS with Snow Leopard, with the caveats that Spotlight-like searching in both was primitive/nonexistent at that time and would have been a great improvement, and XP didn't have virtual desktops.

That 2001-2006 era featured systems that had learned a bunch of lessons from 10-20 years of mainstream GUI computing, but hadn't been consumed by feature bloat and a bunch of Internet connectivity and convergence stuff that I'm not interested in.

XP's design was apparently polarizing but I loved it. I was in a modding phase at that point and loved making my own themes.


For me, the big change came with Windows 2000. It had user benefits from 9x in a stable package. That was the first version that I can play games on and also leave it running for months, just like a Linux box.


The funny thing though is that Windows 2000 was never meant for consumers playing games.

They would have to put up with Windows ME, at least in Microsoft's eyes. Which was the first version you could play games on and leave it running for hours between crashes, lol.

I also used Win 2k Pro and it was an amazing leap coming from 98, yes. My laptop came with ME but it sucked so bad I changed it after a week.


> ... Windows ME ... running for hours between crashes

It depended on the definition of "hours" but sometimes the "hours" were very short.


Curious if you'd ever used a version of Windows NT prior to 2000? Since 2000 was part of the NT line, it might not be a fair comparison.


I did not use NT at home, but I occasionally used it at school. For me at that time, the ability to play games had been as strong a requirement as the ability to be stable and run word processing, email clients and VC++. So I would use Win95 and curse its (in)stability and reboot several times per day, but not switch to NT. Also, NT cost an arm and a leg for a student.

Win2k was a huge improvement in every respect. My 2c.


Didn't Windows 2000 also cost an arm and a leg?


This is ancient memory for me, but it definitely didn't feel this way. Some plausible options are:

(1) Win2k Home was much cheaper than Win2k Pro. Possibly an upgrade version was cheaper still.

(2) I had a bootleg version

(3) I started working for real money in 1999 so didn't care that much

(4) An OEM CD came with the computer hardware kit.


I was in a computer science program and the department literally just gave Windows 2000 keys away. They had a booklet with sheets of stickers and just said take whatever you want. It was easy to give to your friends.

When Windows XP came out, Microsoft unfortunately made them report every key given out, and the free ride was over.


I bet that was it! I either got a sticker like this or got it at the university store as a free add-on to a 90% discounted VC++.


Okay, well fwiw you made me curious enough to look this up:

https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/microsoft-outlines-w...

> When it debuts in February, Windows 2000 Professional will sell for an estimated retail price of $319, the same as its predecessor, Windows NT 4 Workstation.

Note that there was no "home" edition of Windows 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000

So it's one of 2, 3, or 4.


Thank you for the info! As I said, I definitely remember Win2k, but not how I got it. My guess is OEM CD to be most likely, then bootleg, then full retail.

Another option was student bookstore. Microsoft sold its wares at universities at steep discounts.

Edit: a sister comment jogged my memory. I bet it was either a giveaway by an EECS dept or a heavily discounted disc from the university bookstore. Which is why I do not remember paying a noticeable sum for it.


There was no such thing as Windows 2000 Home. That would have been 98 or ME at the time. XP is were they consolidated the two.


They had actually planned one but withdrew this at the last moment, replacing it by ME which was a hastily scrambled version of 98 with a 2000 look on it. And extremely unstable, at least at launch.

I still wonder how they would have thought this was better in any kind of way. A windows 2000 home release could not possibly have had as many problems as ME.


MSRP $319 for 2000 Professional vs. $109 for Windows 98. There was also an upgrade from 95 or 98 for $219.


I remember attempting to run Windows NT 4, but it lacked a lot of hardware support. Windows 2000 Professional fixed a lot of that. I consider Windows 2000 to be the first stable AND usable (for a desktop) version of Windows.


Windows NT before 2000 had problems with games and such, 2000 worked well because most games were now working to target XP ( and 2k had better compatibility with 98 anyway).


Windows NT 4.0's problems with gaming have everything to do with only supporting DirectX up to version 3.0a.

Yes, you read that right: DirectX 3.0a.

Windows 2000 by contrast supported DirectX all the way through DirectX 9.0c, same as Windows XP, 98, and ME.

This is why Windows 2000 could run games properly.


Gaming on NT had a lot of compatibility issues and I don’t think MS ever released officially some of the Direct3D updates for NT.


I loved NT4 and used it for a while. However the lack of USB support forced me to Win2k.


i used several versions of nt prior to 2k - 2k was better than those in every respect.


ntcompatible.com was a great resource for this - I spent a lot of time in those forums.


Windows 7 was legitimately good. Everything since has been a step in the wrong direction.


> None of Microsoft's operating systems were as good as Windows XP

Huh? XP added nothing to 2000 except useless bling.


My thoughts exactly! Except I wouldn't call it bling, I'd call it a hideous Fisher Price aesthetic.

I stuck with 2000 as long as I could before gaming (and maybe.. a certain version of Visual Studio?) eventually forced a switch to XP (with the "classic" theme).


The only XP feature I miss in 2000 is the ability to align icons to a grid.


Direct3D 9.0c


It was also supported on Win2k. For D3D 10 you have a point though.


DirectX 10 required Vista

I remember being gifted Shattered Horizon (a DX10 launch title) and thinking "it really doesn't look that great"

Halo 2 for Vista also required DX10 even though the original Xbox was hardware DX 8.1 only


I’ve been using MacOS as my daily desktop for over a decade, switching from Linux. Seeing the busy cursor is so rare I can’t recall the last time. And I have tons of things open all the time.


Maybe it's related to some cloud service? (However, MS Word used to give you a fair amount of exposure to the beach ball. But I'm not familiar with any of the later versions.)


I've been working professionally using a Mac for 4ish years now. Can count on a single hand the amount of times the cursor is stuck spinning / loading.

I have had my fair share of crashes though.


Most people I know that have some experience say that w2k was the best one ms ever released.


95 was trash, 98 was gold. XP was great, Vista was trash. 7 was great, 8 was trash. 10 was gold, 11 is trash.

Seems Microsoft has to squeeze in at least one bad version between good ones.

But never has a new Windows version been made available where people didn't initially hate them at first, XP, 7, and 10 included. It's not until the version after gets released when people really start appreciating what once was.


10 was only good in comparison to the versions next to it, it has a lot of the problems like intrusive telemetry and bad UI that plague newer windows.


You have missed Windows ME between XP and 98, which was so awful people don't remember it anymore. For a revolutionary product, Windows 95 wasn't that bad.


I've heard the pattern phrased:

95 Good, 98 Bad, 98 SE Good, ME Bad, XP Good, Vista Bad, 7 Good, 8 Bad, 10 Good.

Counting 98 SE as a separate release does seem like cherry-picking in order to make the pattern work. Then again, you could also say the cycle started with Windows 98 (putting the whole of that release into the good pile), and you'd still have a remarkably consistent pattern across two decades and seven versions of Windows. Honestly makes you wonder if there's some deeper cause related to Microsoft's organizational structure or something.


If you're breaking out 98 into two releases, then you should probably break out XP into pre-service-packs and post. IME it wasn't until SP3 that XP really felt solid, depending on what hardware you were running.


Pre-SP3 XP was slow out of the box, buggy, and insecure.


And then there's 11 which doesn't really feel like a new version at all to me.

I use 10 at work and 11 at home and after changing the taskbar settings to put the start button back on the left I don't even notice switching.


>And then there's 11 which doesn't really feel like a new version at all to me.

That's because it isn't, Windows 10 and 11 both identify internally as NT10.0.

For some context: Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 8.1 identified as NT6.0, 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 respectively; Windows 2000 and XP identified as NT5.0 and 5.1 respectively.


For all the rightful hate 11 gets for ads and tracking crap, once you turn it off it feels... fine. I even don't mind the UI look and really like the new window management, but I don't use windows for anything serious anymore, only gaming so maybe there are other issues.


You can't turn off the tracking crap, this is really the biggest problem IMO.

Same here by the way, I don't use it for anything but gaming and work for the tracking reason.


Some things about Win95 are lost to nostalgia, as well. Like broken drivers, esp. in concert with up-to-date office, which came with issues of its own, like broken export formats. (It took more than a year for serious support for Postscript printers, etc.) Win95 became only somewhat functional with Windows 95B. (This one, however, started the IE integration.)


And broken USB support. Even with OSR3 it didn't quite work with many devices.


ME was all the features that eventually went into XP but still based on the Windows 98 kernel instead of NT.

What made XP great was how reliable it was compared to previous Windows versions.


I had the one PC in that era that WinME was smooth sailing on. It was a Packard Bell with a 200mhz Pentium 1 (96 mb of ram at the time, i think). For whatever reason, and combination of hardware, ME had no issues running. I had less blue screens on it, and overall found it to be enjoyable and much more stable than 98 and 95c was on that machine.


It wasn't supposed to be an extensive list, plenty of versions are missing, like NT 4 and well, every single version before 95 :)


There’s also Windows 2000, which I think was the worst of all.


Oh wow, I feel exactly the opposite.

Windows 2000 was no-nonsense, but all good stuff. The good bones that Windows XP got came straight from Win2k.

The only real problem it had was a narrower hardware compatibility profile, but it still wasn’t that bad.


I would personally argue that Windows 2000 wasn't bad, it was just painful in the beginning. It was the transition point from the 9x kernel/setup to the NT kernel/setup and some manufacturers navigated that change better than others in the beginning.


It was a server and workstation OS not really suited for consumer desktop.


It was the first stable Windows OS that could run all the latest games and desktop applications without constantly crashing or needing a periodic reinstall. It was their best desktop OS at the time. XP was just 2000 with an ugly default theme and added bloat.


i used it as my daily driver on a sony laptop - worked like a charm.


it was brilliant - fast and very stable.


>11 is trash.

11 has all the same problems 10 has, but brings many significant improvements both in the backend and frontend. Hardly trash.

>never has a new Windows version been made available where people didn't initially hate them at first

Windows 95 and 98 were both received to applause and fanfare, 95's stellar reception in particular is probably still unmatched to this day.


95's stellar reception in particular is probably still unmatched to this day.

The only shift in user experience that I can equate it to is maybe the jump from candy bar and flip phones to the iPhone and Android. In addition to the UI, it brought real multitasking to a consumer OS.


Windows 11 cranked up the [user-unwanted] telemetry, mandated TPM 2.0, and eliminated hardware support for certain CPU's for no other reason than 'because security' (overridable with a registry hack at least for the moment).


Instability aside, Windows 98 marked the point where Internet Explorer leeched itself into the operating system to the point of no return (only to be finally reversed in the past year). The complaints of social media apps being "preinstalled" with Windows 11 seem to echo the channel bar, Active Desktop and everything else that arrived with IE4. I believe that the notion that Windows 98 was good came when IE5 were released and pulled back on some of those integrations, which happened to coincide with the timing of 98 Second Edition. In any case it was by no means great, but it was good enough.


I don't think that's true. Vista was so hated, that 7 was pretty much universally heralded as a big improvement, even if half of that was the ecosystem getting used to the new driver model introduced by Vista.

And as others have observed, 2000 was an immediate hit with everyone who tried it.


> 10 was gold, 11 is trash

If you think 10 is "gold" and 11 is "trash" I assume you're suffering from some sort of stockholm syndrome from using 10 too long and haven't actually tried 11 yet because it's just a reskinned 10 (and visually, it looks a lot better).


> I assume you’re suffering from some sort of Stockholm syndrome

Periodic reminder that “Stockholm Syndrome” was a complete fabrication based on no clinical evidence invented on the spot to discredit an ex-hostage who was making legitimate criticism of an unnecessarily violent police intervention by one of the architects of that intervention, because they had no rational defense.

Its invocations in debates are also typically as an attempt at a thought-terminating trope to evoke an emotional response that covers the lack of actual argument, which fits the history of the term well.


haven't actually tried 11 yet because it's just a reskinned 10 (and visually, it looks a lot better).

I've been on 11 since it was released and I find it to be objectively a worse experience. On Win 10, I could game on one screen and stream a video in a browser on the other. On Win 11, I get stuttering on the streamed video.

It's also failed to update twice now. I invested hours into debugging the issue the first time. This time it's been days and I'm about to just do a fresh Win 10 install over this nightmare.


> It's also failed to update twice now. I invested hours into debugging the issue the first time. This time it's been days and I'm about to just do a fresh Win 10 install over this nightmare.

My current 11 install has never failed to update, but I have experienced various update failures before on 10. This sort of issue is present in both versions, it's just random whether you'll experience it or not, and I wouldn't be surprised if the stuttering issue is just some random driver incompatibility too.


This sort of issue is present in both versions, it's just random whether you'll experience it or not,

No, it's not random, which I know because I stumbled upon the solution. The problem was that it was using an old 100MB partition as the EFI boot partition. Nowhere in any of the system logs did it mention this. No error message said anything about it. Ridiculous.

and I wouldn't be surprised if the stuttering issue is just some random driver incompatibility too.

Why? My system is the same hardware after the update. In fact, the only thing that's changed (and this happened awhile after the Win 11 'upgrade') was a video card that's 3 - 5x faster than the old one.


What do you dislike about 95?


It was really unstable.

Some people claim this was mostly due to bad 3rd party drivers and not the OS itself. But even if that's true, from the user perspective it's very hard to tell the difference.


What is a "moral market share"? Is that like the market share that you wish something had, instead of the market share it actually has?




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