If you don't mind me asking, how do get all of your work done? Are you standing by on-call in case something goes wrong? Are you waiting on someone to deliver assets required for your next task? Do you lie about how long it takes to complete tasks? Honestly curious as I cannot remember a time where I had the free time to just screw around for any meaningful portion of my day.
A lot of jobs (even as developers) in large companies have a positive correlation between butt in seat time and the perception of getting work done, but there usually isn’t enough work to do to fill the entire time. Most people work jobs that they aren’t truly passionate about.
Why would it be embarrassing to state "I currently have nothing to do right now, is there anything available I can help with." if you cannot figure out anything productive you could be doing on your own.
Are people's managers actually saying to them, "Yes, there is nothing you can do right now, just sit in your seat and do nothing until I come get you"? I've never had that experience, and is why I'm asking about it.
If you don’t enjoy your job, then it might be better to get done what is expected of you and enjoy the rest of the time you have to spend butt-in-chair doing something else, instead of intentionally piling more unenjoyable work on your platter. Especially if the manager isn’t technical: just don’t tell them you’re done and spend that time doing something else.
Of course it completely depends on your work situation and the relationship with your manager, as well as how socially acceptable it is in your organization. I think lots of the people doing it had slacked off in high school and college and gotten away with it.
Your relationship with your work and your time is probably much healthier, so I wouldn’t start screwing around during work hours now.
Hey, I thought it was obvious. "Yes, there is nothing you can do right now, just sit in your seat and do nothing until I come get you" is not something a manager want to say. That seems downright incompetent. So the idea is, don't put them in a position where they would have to say this.
I'm not saying it's always like this, but it happens.
So you never find yourself working on a hard problem that you can't immediately solve, decide to get up and walk around to see who else is free then start talking for a bit before returning to your desk to find that your hard problem isn't so hard and now you have the solution? Of course, my problem is I WFH, so I end up talking to the kids stuffed animals. They don't really carry on good conversations.
For sure. But that is working. I'm talking about all these stories of trying to prevent their boss from catching them playing games or surfing the web etc. If I did that I would fall way behind the work that needs to get done.
That's why I wonder if maybe I'm missing something about other people's work days. Because, not only is it kind of sad, it also seems like actual criminal fraud to lie to people about what you are doing while they are paying to be doing something.
Assuming you are salaried, you are paid to solve problems, not run out the clock.
Personally, I often have what I suppose you could think of as a "priority queue" of things going on in my head. Some of those may not be work related. If I have something "high priority" that I cannot get my mind off of, it is to everyone's benefit that I take care of that item so I can get on to work-related tasks.
I think being distracted at work is not a "stick it to the man" activity for most people. It is just incredibly difficult to be actively providing value for a full work day. Humans need breaks. Same reason why there is the joke about construction crews always just sitting around.
I've heard before as a criticism of Agile that "it's not a sprint, it's a marathon". I would take it even further: Being a professional isn't a marathon. It's a migration. You are going to be at this a very long time, and you need to go at a pace that you can sustain for years on end.
> It is just incredibly difficult to be actively providing value for a full work day.
Then go home? Otherwise you are just lying to your employer and perpetuating a false pretense that their employees are being productive for a full day.
If I'm not being productive and I can't finish any more work, I just go home. I don't sit there and lie about what I'm doing and pretend to be doing something I'm not.
I should clarify that my issue is about faking it. Needing a boss button to hide what you were actually doing.
Also, we all know that software developers are not really salaried employees. It was a loophole created after IBM lost a lawsuit. After some lobbying we were made explicitly exempt. So we really are just paid to "run out the clock". We are not managers or administrative people. We just do labor like any other tradesperson.
I'm curious, what do you feel is the difference? Are you saying that you frequently lie to people you work with and that you feel that is acceptable? Or are you talking about having extra free time where you don't actually have any additional work?
>Then go home? Otherwise you are just lying to your employer and perpetuating a false pretense that their employees are being productive for a full day.
I am remote half the time. I'm not lying to anyone about anything. The measure of what I accomplish is our ticketing / planning system and the pull requests I put up to complete the various work tickets.
There is no reason to go home when I have a ten minute task I need to take care of. Same as a construction worker doesn't go home just because he needs to sit and rest for five minutes.
An example of when I would close a browser tab or switch away to another screen is when I'm having a personal conversation or looking into something banking related. I would do the same if someone came into the room even in a non-work setting.
> Also, we all know that software developers are not really salaried employees. It was a loophole created after IBM lost a lawsuit. After some lobbying we were made explicitly exempt. So we really are just paid to "run out the clock". We are not managers or administrative people. We just do labor like any other tradesperson.
Maybe there is a fancy technical definition of salaried that I am not grasping, but I get paid $X / year, with a predictable paycheck each week. I am not paid at an hourly rate. To me that is salaried.
> Are you saying that you frequently lie to people you work with and that you feel that is acceptable?
I never said I was lying to anyone. I don't think anyone in this entire thread suggested lying to your employer.
> Or are you talking about having extra free time where you don't actually have any additional work?
There is always more to do. That is the nature of life. But the truth is that we are people and not machines. You can't turn on a person and expect them to keep going at a steady rate day in day out forever. That is an assembly line mentality and I won't work under such conditions, nor do I think any self-respecting software developer should.
What's he's really talking about is exempt vs non-exempt employees. (The exemption being from paying 1.5x for work past 40 hours a week). Most but not all salaried positions are exempt, and all hourly positions are non-exempt.
It's a tool designed to run a command when it detects motion from its sensor. It's a clever little doodad and I'd guess most of the positive attention it's getting has nothing to do with "lying to your employer". My personal opinion is that you've taken something far too literally about the text on the landing page and missed the point of it all.
It's not productive to focus on mentally challenging tasks for ~8 hours a day, ~5 days a week, ~50 weeks a year. You're going to burn out insanely quickly. That kind of mindset--that idling is sad/"fraud"--is incredibly toxic, and it's the reason why US employees have terrible vacation time compared to some countries in Europe. You can take an hour-long break from work to do something relaxing/fun. It's really not a big deal, as long as you're being productive the rest of the day.
Elsewhere, you said “if I know I won’t accomplish anything else, I just go home.” What’s the difference between this and surfing the web? The “lie?” I think folks just don’t want their boss to be confronted by the lack of productivity in that moment. Being at home accomplishes the same thing. But I don’t want to go home, because I’m getting back to work in 10 minutes. And, for that matter, I’m probably putting in some time at home, because I like what I do.
Many managers don’t understand creative work because they can do 70 hrs / week answering emails. Some folks don’t have the option of going home early. Some folks are semi-on-call even though their day-to-day is more as a “solve novel problems” kind of gig.
Calling these kinds of activities lies or fraud really pisses me off, actually. You’re being paid to be a technical creative professional. The optimally productive year looks different for different personalities.
Personally, I oscillate. I tend to have an incredibly strong couple of weeks followed by a week of low productivity. Some people thrive on consistency. I do better when I can get my brain into a semi-manic hyperfocus where my task at hand is literally the only thing I’m thinking about 24/7. That also works nicely when we have an upcoming client engagement, because I’ve learned how to trigger that mentality. That’s not sustainable though. So for other weeks I want to be plugged into the workplace but don’t necessarily expect myself to be ON to the same degree. Surfing on HN or whatever gives me creative juice for the next up-week.
I’m lucky enough to have a boss who understands this dynamic. Even folks that understand themselves well enough to be great in their jobs might still have managers who don’t get it, and punish those downcycles. If the job is otherwise great, that would be a reason to tell that “lie” that, like many white lies, is primarily a social lubricant.
I have definitely had jobs where it would have been possible to do this. Largely due to clueless management, endemic to Australian business in my experience. It's such an old boys club, any duffer in a suit with a red enough face and sufficiently sport-versed beery brain remnants can run companies, and they have no idea what's going on 'beneath' them.
